Tuesday, January 3, 2012

Why Skeptics in the Pub is not "Church for Atheists"

I know that there's at least a few of my friends that feel this way -- that my efforts in skepticism are basically my replacement for religion.

Here's what happens at Skeptics in the Pub: I go to the pub and hang out with like minded people, drink a few beers and talk about science, politics, social issues, and basically shoot the shit with people that I would like to become closer to. This is not much different than any social gathering, and admittedly it's not unlike what many believers do in their Sunday church gatherings. But there is one big difference.

That big difference is that there is no doctrine, and no truths are taken for granted. Churches usually reinforce preheld beliefs through scriptures and sermons, and in many modern churches, through music and pop culture elements. When we meet as skeptics, we get together and talk, offer our opinions and open our minds to new ideas because new ideas tend to always get exposed.

Today, I chatted with my peers about sexism and gender roles, dealing with death and loss, the heroes in our lives, the doomsday predictions of the year, and the difference between how we behave online versus in person, among other things. Each of these issues was approached with opinions going in, but we all seemed to gain some insight into contrary points of view by hashing things out, playing devil's advocate, and genuinely disagreeing about certain issues until mutual understanding could bring us to a form of consensus. Doesn't sound much like doctrine, closed-mindedness and faith to me.

The main criticisms and comments about my skeptical attitude are "It takes just as much faith to be an atheist" and "Skepticism is just like his religion" (as if to say, "my views as a spiritual person are just as valid as your views as a skeptic just because we have similar ways of thinking), but I think this is intellectually dishonest, and ignores the disagreements we have. For example: if someone believes that 9/11 was a conspiracy enacted by the US government, and I do not, we disagree completely. Our ways of thinking, even if they were similar (which they are not) do not excuse the fact that we are at odds on this issue. Agreeing to disagree may sound like the most diplomatic and respectful solution to our problems, but it gets us nowhere and advances nothing.

Skeptics in the pub is very casual, and represents the more communal aspect of what many churches may do, but there really is nothing about it that reinforces my preheld beliefs about the way things work, nor does it make me any stronger in my conviction that the nonsense advertised by pseudo-scientists and theologians is bullshit; the conversations we have always challenge my assumptions and remind me of how humble I really ought to be. I always find myself inspired that I should question things more.

When was the last time, in your church, that you were told not to just accept the preacher's content at face value? When was the last time anyone said to you, "you know that Jesus thing? You ought to question whether or not it's really true." Chances are, never. If so, I'm very impressed with your church, and I'd love to invite the priest out to the pub some day for a glass of Christ's blood to mull over the biggest issues of our day. Unfortunately, the clergy want nothing to do with that discussion, and would rather preach to the flock that which has already been proven bunk by the best of the skeptical community, ignoring we exist at all.

There's nothing I'd love more than to have a panel discussion with people that disagree with me right there at the pub. Think I'm closed minded? Arrogant? Unable to listen to the other side? Try me.

7 comments:

  1. "When was the last time, in your church, that you were told not to just accept the preacher's content at face value?"

    Actually, all the time. I understand your skepticism, but we're not all ignorant, blind followers of whatever people tell us. There definitely are those people, and there are those of us who research and keep our minds open. I was taught to do that. Just because someone is a preacher and studies the Bible so as to speak on it in front of a church, does not mean he/she is perfect. There are a lot of ideas out there, and where someone may mean well and have the best intentions, they are very influenced by their own personal beliefs. For example, there are those that speak out against drinking alcohol of any kind. No where is the Bible does it discourage drinking (except for leaders in the church) "Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money ..." 1Tim 3:8. The Bible frowns on drunkenness, but actually encourages drinking in some verses - "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities." 1Tim 5:23. But why would preachers preach so strongly against drinking in general? Well, they are influenced by their personal belief that drinking is the gateway to drunkenness. Many people don't realize how personal beliefs influence sermons, and take everything at face value. In extreme cases, you get people like the Westboro Baptist congregation.

    Unfortunately, I believe that the church today has evolved from what it originated as - it started as something very similar as what you have described the "Skeptics in the Pub" to be. Just a bunch of people of like mind, gathered together to discuss life and ideas and beliefs.

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    1. “Unfortunately, I believe that the church today has evolved from what it originated as - it started as something very similar as what you have described the "Skeptics in the Pub" to be. Just a bunch of people of like mind, gathered together to discuss life and ideas and beliefs.”

      Well that is partly true Anonymous. Here it is from the Big Guy`s inspired, inerrant and infallible word itself: Acts 2: 42 – 45 “42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
      43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
      44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
      45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.”
      KJV

      It sounds like top down leadership to me. How do you argue with someone who has just performed a supernatural wonder or sign?

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  2. No one is saying that religion doesn't have disagreements with itself in terms of contradictions within the scriptures, but having read a fair chunk of the bible already, it's clear that while things have changed for the better, the very nature of faith is blind--the little disagreements about whether or not drinking is permissible is not the same as questioning the very divinity of the scriptures. It tends to be taken as a given that the bible is the book that all that wisdom can be derived from, and that's the kind of thing you won't hear preachers encourage discussion about.

    For the record, I am not saying that all followers of religion are ignorant, blind followers. I'd even give most of you credit as being quite intelligent, but step outside the boundaries of religion and examine it without the rose coloured glasses and you may find exactly the type of stuff that the Westboro Baptist church promotes. I'd give you enough credit to realize that that view of the world is not cohesive with an ideal reality.

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  3. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 ESV

    But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

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  4. Dean, I really respect that you are reading through the Bible to form your own decision of it. It is very commendable. But I wouldn't hazard to say that I am a 'follower of religion' as you have mentioned in your comment. I am not very eloquent with words, so I failed to describe what I was truly trying to convey - and that is that a lot of what christianity has become is a religion, and it was never meant to be one. It is quite easy for a religion to become a cult, and that is the very last thing that I wish to be a part of. I don't consider myself to be part of a religion. Its kind of difficult for me to explain, so maybe I will just give you a link to a video I watched the other day that explains it better than me. Oh and by the way, I'm the one who posted the first comment. :)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1IAhDGYlpqY#!

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    1. Matthew 5:18
      King James Version (KJV)
      For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

      Jesus was a Jew. The video says Jesus hates religion. Why would he hate his religion? He is saying here that the Jewish Law will be in effect until the world ends.
      I saw this video when it first came out and my take on it then was that it is the same old tired message that sucked me into Christianity when I was a teen. Who wouldn`t be excited about a personal relationship with a loving deity? The personal relationship turns out to be a relationship with your own ego or subconscious. To remain a Christian however you have to keep the rules. Who defines the rules? This is unclear as the large number of competing Christian sects and denominations attest to.

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  5. I just saw that video today, actually. While I disagree with a lot of the values he's trying to express, he's at least expressing them in a way that's changing things positively from within. But then, that's how it's been for centuries, as religions (whether you would use the term or not) have been forced to adapt to secular values as society has become more progressive, lest they go the way of the Westboro. The evolution of human values is an interesting area of study, I wish I was better than just a layperson at doing the research.

    In any case, I think there's a lot of common ground that can be reached through conversations like these, but in order to make progress, it's essential that we not be afraid of the questions, and that's what I like most about the pub nights I like to attend.

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